The Dice of Doom Podcast 000 – The Magic Missile Errata

Posted on July 12, 2010 by RupertG
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Dice of Doom PodcastRecently we posted about the WotC errata for Magic Missile. Since then there has been a lot of discussion about why the change was made – was it for balancing purposes, nostalgia or in preparation for the release of the Red Box? We thought it would make a great point of discussion for our first podcast. Please join us as we talk about the errata and the implications of the changes.

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Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 35:36 — 32.6MB)

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Articles we discuss

[In the discussion during the podcast we refer to Chris Sim's article “Dice Heresy" about using 3d6 instead of a d20 for attack rolls in D&D4e. At the time, we couldn't remember his name (sorry Chris!) and we promised to include a link to the article. Sadly, all references to the article seem to be returning 404's, so we can't link to it. But we'd still like to give Chris the credit for the idea.]

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About RupertG

RupertG has been playing roleplaying games ever since he discovered Dragon Warriors at the age of 12. Since those days he has played many different RPG's, collected not insignificant Dwarf and Tomb Kings armies for Warhammer Fantasy Battles and even worked as a games designer in the heady days of the late 90's building a CCG. Now he runs a gaming blog and is a participant in the Grand Gaming Experiment
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  • just_jeepin

    I liked the podcast… my only complaint was the audio was all over the place. One second it was too loud, the next it was too quiet. Getting mics for each person would help solve that problem.

    Otherwise looking forward to more.

  • just_jeepin

    I liked the podcast… my only complaint was the audio was all over the place. One second it was too loud, the next it was too quiet. Getting mics for each person would help solve that problem.

    Otherwise looking forward to more.

  • http://www.diceofdoom.com/blog/author/rupertg RupertG

    I’m glad you enjoyed the podcast. I’ve taken the audio issue onboard and I will be uploading a new version of the podcast that I have run through Levelator which has made a massive difference to the quality of the audio. It should be up and ready in a couple of hours.

    Thanks for letting us know. :)

  • http://www.diceofdoom.com/blog/author/rupertg RupertG

    I’m glad you enjoyed the podcast. I’ve taken the audio issue onboard and I will be uploading a new version of the podcast that I have run through Levelator which has made a massive difference to the quality of the audio. It should be up and ready in a couple of hours.

    Thanks for letting us know. :)

  • http://www.diceofdoom.com/blog/author/rupertg RupertG

    Just letting everyone know the audio has been greatly improved. We’ll be changing the way that we record the podcast from here on in to insure a higher quality result.

  • http://www.diceofdoom.com/blog/author/rupertg RupertG

    Just letting everyone know the audio has been greatly improved. We’ll be changing the way that we record the podcast from here on in to insure a higher quality result.

  • Lizenz

    I have not yet implemented these house rules, but here are my musings for ways to shorten combat and empower Magic Missile:

    HIT POINTS RULE: At first level instead of, for example, a Fighter getting 15 + Constitution SCORE hit points, give him 15 + Constitution MODIFIER hit points. At every level past first use the following table:
    If Class gets 4 hp – 1d4
    If class gets 5 hp – 1d6
    If class gets 6 hp – 1d8
    Now this does give the potential for having MORE hit points than the standard 4E rules, I rolled hp for 4 30th level Fighters (who would benefit most possibly from the change in hit points) and compared the results to a standard 30th level Fighter (205 hp, starting Con 16 for all Fighters mentioned). On my rolls my highest outcome was 170 and the average was 155 (exactly 50 hit points fewer than the “standard” Fighter). This change alone should cut combat time down by about 25%.

    MONSTER HIT POINTS (excluding minions): Cut their hp by 1/2 (or 1/4 to fit in with “classed” enemies if you prefer).

    MAGIC MISSILE: 1d4 + int mod damage. Add a second missile at level 11 and a third at level 21. Might just be me, but I hate static damage (also this allows the Int mod at level 21+ to be applied 3 times).

    BRINGING IT TOGETHER: Take the Fighters above (205 hp and 155 hp) and pit them against a level 30 Wizard with 30 Int. Under current rules the 205 hp warrior would take exactly 14 rounds to kill by the wizard (5 dmg + 10 int mod for 15 damage/round). Given average damage for my rule above (all dice rolls 2), the 155 hp Fighter would take 5 rounds to kill by the wizard ([2 dmg + 10 int mod]*3 for 36 damage/round).

    I am also considering a House Rule increasing number of basic attacks per round to 2 at level 11 and 3 at level 21 (one at-will power can be used each round as a replacement for one of your attacks; spells such as magic missile that can be used as Basic Attacks may only still be used as one once per round).

    • http://diceofdoom.com/blog/author/cuchulain/ Cuchulain

      Sounds like a pretty good system of house rules. The excess hit points are one of the big problems, and making a simple cut such as you’ve done sounds like a reasonable response. It’s interesting that your suggestions work to kind of roll back the 4E changes to make it feel a bit more like previous editions – adding back the random hit points and multiple attacks.

      But even with these changes I don’t think I’m a fan of this edition. The bit that annoys me the most is the meaningless (or ridiculous) attack powers.

  • Lizenz

    I have not yet implemented these house rules, but here are my musings for ways to shorten combat and empower Magic Missile:

    HIT POINTS RULE: At first level instead of, for example, a Fighter getting 15 + Constitution SCORE hit points, give him 15 + Constitution MODIFIER hit points. At every level past first use the following table:
    If Class gets 4 hp – 1d4
    If class gets 5 hp – 1d6
    If class gets 6 hp – 1d8
    Now this does give the potential for having MORE hit points than the standard 4E rules, I rolled hp for 4 30th level Fighters (who would benefit most possibly from the change in hit points) and compared the results to a standard 30th level Fighter (205 hp, starting Con 16 for all Fighters mentioned). On my rolls my highest outcome was 170 and the average was 155 (exactly 50 hit points fewer than the “standard” Fighter). This change alone should cut combat time down by about 25%.

    MONSTER HIT POINTS (excluding minions): Cut their hp by 1/2 (or 1/4 to fit in with “classed” enemies if you prefer).

    MAGIC MISSILE: 1d4 + int mod damage. Add a second missile at level 11 and a third at level 21. Might just be me, but I hate static damage (also this allows the Int mod at level 21+ to be applied 3 times).

    BRINGING IT TOGETHER: Take the Fighters above (205 hp and 155 hp) and pit them against a level 30 Wizard with 30 Int. Under current rules the 205 hp warrior would take exactly 14 rounds to kill by the wizard (5 dmg + 10 int mod for 15 damage/round). Given average damage for my rule above (all dice rolls 2), the 155 hp Fighter would take 5 rounds to kill by the wizard ([2 dmg + 10 int mod]*3 for 36 damage/round).

    I am also considering a House Rule increasing number of basic attacks per round to 2 at level 11 and 3 at level 21 (one at-will power can be used each round as a replacement for one of your attacks; spells such as magic missile that can be used as Basic Attacks may only still be used as one once per round).

    • http://diceofdoom.com/blog/author/cuchulain/ Cuchulain

      Sounds like a pretty good system of house rules. The excess hit points are one of the big problems, and making a simple cut such as you’ve done sounds like a reasonable response. It’s interesting that your suggestions work to kind of roll back the 4E changes to make it feel a bit more like previous editions – adding back the random hit points and multiple attacks.

      But even with these changes I don’t think I’m a fan of this edition. The bit that annoys me the most is the meaningless (or ridiculous) attack powers.

  • http://www.diceofdoom.com/blog/author/rupertg RupertG

    I have to agree with you on the set damage and health increase. I much prefer a roll for those two things. Reducing a player’s HP’s also makes them more keen to seek out different approaches to solving problems other than just hitting things… :)

    The reduction in HP’s for monsters does make the combats a lot faster, and I don’t think makes much of an impact in the balance of the game. Some would argue that you might risk screwing up the level advancement, but in the end level advancement is an arbitrary line in the sand made by the game designers based on reward for risk – people should feel very free to play around with this in my opinion.

    The Magic Missile adjustment that you are proposing is very similar to what we were looking at doing as well (great minds and all…) – so I heartily agree with that adjustment as well. :)

    It’s good to see someone modifying the game to suit their playing style. Keep up the good work!

  • http://www.diceofdoom.com/blog/author/rupertg RupertG

    I have to agree with you on the set damage and health increase. I much prefer a roll for those two things. Reducing a player’s HP’s also makes them more keen to seek out different approaches to solving problems other than just hitting things… :)

    The reduction in HP’s for monsters does make the combats a lot faster, and I don’t think makes much of an impact in the balance of the game. Some would argue that you might risk screwing up the level advancement, but in the end level advancement is an arbitrary line in the sand made by the game designers based on reward for risk – people should feel very free to play around with this in my opinion.

    The Magic Missile adjustment that you are proposing is very similar to what we were looking at doing as well (great minds and all…) – so I heartily agree with that adjustment as well. :)

    It’s good to see someone modifying the game to suit their playing style. Keep up the good work!

  • Lizenz

    Cuchulain: The reason I’m sticking with 4E and tweaking it back to 3rd Edition as I see fit is that I am the only one left nowadays of my former roleplaying group that still plays and the people I am currently teaching are completely green to RPGs and, while fundamentally flawed in several ways, Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition is the single easiest edition to just pick up and go with if you are just learning (which is I think what the creators were going for). You pick a race (which gives no penalties, just bonuses), then a class, then you just have to read up on that one class and you, as a player, are set to go. While more strategic, most combat is also more straight-forward and as for where it lacks in out-of-combat rules, I don’t see much of a problem skimping on that. Non-combat encounters should be Roleplayed, not “Rollplayed” so you can make up any rules you need to as a DM as you go on the fly for that :) .

    Also, after hearing this podcast today I toyed with yet another extra old-school-flavored rule:

    TWO-WEAPON MASTERY (Feat; Prerequisites – Dex 13, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense): You may make one extra attack per round with your off-hand weapon albeit at a -5 penalty to all attacks made during your turn. This ability can only be used in conjunction with other Basic Attacks and requires a Full-Round Action (Rangers may use in conjunction with Twin Fang).

    This allows all classes the potential to be decent dual-wielders, but has 2 prerequisites and still leaves, I feel, the Ranger at the top of the Two-Weapon game with the Twin Fang clause at the end.

  • Lizenz

    Cuchulain: The reason I’m sticking with 4E and tweaking it back to 3rd Edition as I see fit is that I am the only one left nowadays of my former roleplaying group that still plays and the people I am currently teaching are completely green to RPGs and, while fundamentally flawed in several ways, Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition is the single easiest edition to just pick up and go with if you are just learning (which is I think what the creators were going for). You pick a race (which gives no penalties, just bonuses), then a class, then you just have to read up on that one class and you, as a player, are set to go. While more strategic, most combat is also more straight-forward and as for where it lacks in out-of-combat rules, I don’t see much of a problem skimping on that. Non-combat encounters should be Roleplayed, not “Rollplayed” so you can make up any rules you need to as a DM as you go on the fly for that :) .

    Also, after hearing this podcast today I toyed with yet another extra old-school-flavored rule:

    TWO-WEAPON MASTERY (Feat; Prerequisites – Dex 13, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense): You may make one extra attack per round with your off-hand weapon albeit at a -5 penalty to all attacks made during your turn. This ability can only be used in conjunction with other Basic Attacks and requires a Full-Round Action (Rangers may use in conjunction with Twin Fang).

    This allows all classes the potential to be decent dual-wielders, but has 2 prerequisites and still leaves, I feel, the Ranger at the top of the Two-Weapon game with the Twin Fang clause at the end.

  • http://diceofdoom.com/blog/author/cuchulain/ Cuchulain

    Yeah, you can’t fault WotC for catering to new gamers. There’s precious few of them around these days and any move to make gaming more welcoming or build the hobby base should be encouraged. With a new group I guess I’d probably go with 4E as well! … maybe… Heavily house ruled.

  • http://diceofdoom.com/blog/author/cuchulain/ Cuchulain

    Yeah, you can’t fault WotC for catering to new gamers. There’s precious few of them around these days and any move to make gaming more welcoming or build the hobby base should be encouraged. With a new group I guess I’d probably go with 4E as well! … maybe… Heavily house ruled.

  • http://www.diceofdoom.com/blog/author/rupertg RupertG

    There are a lot of things that I think 4E got right – powers for all, balancing, etc. This is out weighed unfortunately by the long long long combats and the half finished rules for pretty much anything else in the game.

    Of course, all this means is that there is plenty of room for the development of custom rules… :)

  • http://www.diceofdoom.com/blog/author/rupertg RupertG

    There are a lot of things that I think 4E got right – powers for all, balancing, etc. This is out weighed unfortunately by the long long long combats and the half finished rules for pretty much anything else in the game.

    Of course, all this means is that there is plenty of room for the development of custom rules… :)